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CrazyHoe
Joined: 19 Feb 2008
Posts: 2670
Location: Mtl; '98 2dr4x4 Tahoe, L31,Hookers Long T, 0411,EFIlive, 4L80-E,dual 3" pipes,next:marine+Whipp
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 Molybdenum disulfide as a lubricant additive
Warning: Since the molyb particle size we will be using is in the lung damaging dust dimension ( 0.5 micron to 5 micron), proper care should be taken to protect yourself.
I strongly recommend using Organic Vapor/P100 Cartridge/Filter respirator
I found many treads discussing the molyb content of oils and it's properties. But nothing clearly informative just bits and pieces. It seams Molybd plays a major role in wear protection and lubrication.
Looking to find the best source/solution for engine protection + lubrication.
From Wiki
Use as lubricant
MoS2 with particle sizes in the range of 1-100 µm is a common dry lubricant. Few alternatives exist that can confer the high lubricity and stability up to 350 °C in oxidizing environments. Sliding friction tests of MoS2 using a pin on disc tester at low loads (0.1-2 N) give friction coefficient values of <0.1.
Molybdenum disulfide is often a component of blends and composites where low friction is sought. A variety of oils and greases are used, because they retain their lubricity even in cases of almost complete oil loss, thus finding a use in critical applications such as aircraft engines. When added to plastics, MoS2 forms a composite with improved strength as well as reduced friction. Polymers that have been filled with MoS2 include nylon (with the trade name Nylatron), Teflon, and Vespel. Self-lubricating composite coatings for high-temperature applications have been developed consisting of molybdenum disulfide and titanium nitride by chemical vapor deposition. [1]
[edit] Specific uses
It is often used in two-stroke engines; e.g., motorcycle engines. MoS2 is also used in CV and universal joints. During the Vietnam War, the molybdenum disulfide product "Dri-Slide" was used to lubricate weapons, although it was supplied from private sources, not the military.[2] MoS2-coatings allow bullets easier passage through the rifle barrel with less deformation and better ballistic accuracy
Lubrication
There are currently no clear lubrication alternatives to molybdenum disulfide or the very similar tungsten disulfide that can resist temperatures higher than 350°C in oxidizing environments. Research has been conducted on compacted oxide layer glazes, which form during metallic surface sliding wear at several hundred degrees Celsius. However, because these oxide layers are physically-unstable, their use has currently not proven practical.
Last edited by CrazyHoe on Sun Jun 28, 2009 1:22 pm; edited 2 times in total
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| Thu May 07, 2009 4:42 pm |
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CrazyHoe
Joined: 19 Feb 2008
Posts: 2670
Location: Mtl; '98 2dr4x4 Tahoe, L31,Hookers Long T, 0411,EFIlive, 4L80-E,dual 3" pipes,next:marine+Whipp
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From this tread:
http://www.pacificp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8566&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=20
Bent1 wrote:Discovered Molybdenum disulfide back around late 60's/early 70's
while designing military/NASA stuff. Spec'ed out for all things, even
as the 'dry lube' (you know it's 'out there' when spec says zero
gravity). Tungsten disulfide is another, newer, dry lube that 'coats',
not plate. Tungsten is easily scraped off, while molyb is 'plated' to
the metal.
Asked one of the physicists and he had to look it up to confirm his
memory. EXTREMELY expensive back then and some times couldn't
get it, so used our military priority POs...of course only for govmnt
use....but one must have lots of stock, right ?
Tungsten is tough to get onto ICE innards, while Molybdenum can
be added to engine oil. It is a solid and needs to either be extremely
fine in particle size, or in a liquid form. Molybdenum naturally bonds
to metal. Molyb is a tougher coating than Tungsten. I had Speeder
research one supplier out in his neck of the woods. Have some potentially
patentable usages for that stuff. The stuff I bought is made to around
2 microns or less in size. 'BEST' engine oil filters down to around 5-7 microns,
IIRC.
Molyb is what makes front wheel drive CV's last so long. In the early
days, they died much sooner.
You shooters out there know all about Molyb both for the slugs and barrels
I've seen small, high rev'ing ICE's temp gauage drop 5*-7* F after just
adding molyb additive. In only 10-12 miles. V8's don't show as much
as there are more things going on and the lessened friction lost in the
noise.
Since plated, losing liquid/grease lube will have it go metal to metal,
but molyb on molyb, which is extremely low friction. Gouging is what
you don't want (welding of the metals).
The place I used to buy from was in Calif and they went out of biz.
Father died (inventor), Daughter ran it for a while, then her brother
who then decided seminary school, so she got it back, but didn't want
to, so tried to sell it off. Very preditory folks tried and failed to buy
it, so she shut it down. I bought hundreds of bucks worth and is my
life time supply, which isn't going to make it...good thing that I'm
living longer than expected...
Only need about 8oz per 5 quarts of engine oil. I used 16oz for my
7.4L after breaking it in.
Haven't looked for a new supplier, but now that you have reminded
me...gotta add that to the list that is way toooooooo looooooooong...
Careful and make sure to check their claimed particle size. If it's
bigger than 5-7 microns, it will get filtered out. Why some have formulated
liquid and when I looked at them, too early and some problems with
acidic reactions of some sort (didn't go any further to investigate).
I break in my ICEs as in the post a few weeks ago. Then after about
10 minutes of running 'hard', but not WOT or under large loads. I add
Molybdenum Sulfide to the dino oil. Then around 500 miles flush and
use synthetic (Mobil 1) and molyb additive.
Why some have asked how come my dash gauages show such high
engine oil PSI. Largely due to both my break in procedure and Molyb
A bit on the low side pictured, as it used to go past 80PSI and hang at aroung
47-50PSI at idle and in need of an oil/filter change. Plus it's at just
over 156K with some tough towing miles, so it's getting old.
Once it has plated, it doesn't ever need another treatment...except
for extreme pressure spots. Like the top of the cylinder next to
the head. It does get scraped off over time. So I re-treat every 20K-40K
or so miles...depends on which car/engine. The Z got it more often, as
am a boy racer in that more/most all times...
I only use molybdenum disulfide filled grease. Mainly high temp
disc brake grease filled with molyb. On everything. Bought a big
plastic jug, about 1 gallon, of Sta-Lube High Temp Disc brake
lube. Load my grease guns with the stuff.
Wonderful stuff for diff's (open, not for anything with a clutch) and
manual trannies. Anything with a clutch will ruin it, as it's too slippery
and the clutches will have next to no friction.
NOTE that this stuff leaves nasty, permeate grease stains on clothing...
If you find some sites, please link them here or start another thread.
-old Ben
PS...always wanted to coat the entire innards of one of my 'built'
ICE's, but never found anyone willing to do that. Tungsten Disulfide
is a 'cold' process and like said, asked Speeder to check out that
place in Tulsa. Way cool to have an ICE with almost no friction
from it's moving parts sliding on each other... Around that time, 'hard
chrome' was also touted as a friction reducer, but that is even more
expensive and harder to work. Harley had an engine hard chromed
and never heard back on how that went.
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| Thu May 07, 2009 4:53 pm |
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CrazyHoe
Joined: 19 Feb 2008
Posts: 2670
Location: Mtl; '98 2dr4x4 Tahoe, L31,Hookers Long T, 0411,EFIlive, 4L80-E,dual 3" pipes,next:marine+Whipp
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http://www.reade.com/Products/Sulfides/molybdenum_disulfide.html
* Molybdenum Disulfide Particle Size Grades Available:
a) 20 mesh x down
b) 50 mesh x down
c) 150 mesh x down
d) 325 mesh by down
e) Median particle size of 1 - 2 microns (Super fine grade)
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| Thu May 07, 2009 4:58 pm |
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CrazyHoe
Joined: 19 Feb 2008
Posts: 2670
Location: Mtl; '98 2dr4x4 Tahoe, L31,Hookers Long T, 0411,EFIlive, 4L80-E,dual 3" pipes,next:marine+Whipp
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Molybdenum Disulfide Super Fine (1.5um) 1 lb. bem-molySF-1 $48.50
http://www.rosemill.com/product.asp?productid=258465
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| Thu May 07, 2009 5:03 pm |
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CrazyHoe
Joined: 19 Feb 2008
Posts: 2670
Location: Mtl; '98 2dr4x4 Tahoe, L31,Hookers Long T, 0411,EFIlive, 4L80-E,dual 3" pipes,next:marine+Whipp
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Dri-Slide® Improved Weapons Lubricant, 4 fl oz bottle
http://www.lubritek.com/product/DSL204-C
Moly Use & Instructions
MidwayUSA Technical Grade Moly Instructions
Molybdenum disulfide or Moly, as it is commonly called, is a lubricant used in extreme pressure conditions due to its high degree of lubricity and high melting point. Technical Grade Moly has been found to reduce bore fouling when applied to bullet surfaces. It will decrease bore cleaning effort and time. Published reports have shown an increase in Ballistic Coefficient, longer barrel life and an increase in accuracy. Technical Grade Moly coated bullets will reduce the pressure and velocity. However, this does not mean that powder can be added indiscriminately. Loads must be worked up slowly to attain previous velocities. The maximum pressure of the cartridge must not be exceeded under any circumstances.
LOADING DATA IS NOT INTERCHANGEABLE. DO NOT USE LOADING DATA FOR MOLY-COATED BULLETS WITH NON-MOLY COATED BULLETS.
Application Instructions
The MidwayUSA 1292 Tumbler™ was used to develop our application techniques. Results may vary with the use of other types of tumblers. Processing time and the quantity of Technical Grade Moly needed may differ due to variations in bullet jacket material and tumbler design. Max load for the 1292 is 10 lbs.
Degrease bullets using warm water and a liquid dishwashing detergent. Rinse well and dry thoroughly before coating with Technical Grade Moly. Do not touch bullets after degreasing.
We recommend using a different bowl for each basic bullet type, i.e., bullets without exposed lead. Bullets with exposed lead and cast bullets should not be coated in the same bowl. The exposed lead will deposit a thin layer of lead on the bowl surface. The lead particles will contaminate the surface of the bullet jacket which will keep the Technical Grade Moly from adhering to the jacket.
Bullets without Exposed Lead: Add 1/8 tsp of Technical Grade Moly per 5 pounds (35,000 grains) of bullets. Do not tumble for more than two hours. Clean bowl after 50 pounds of bullets have been coated.
Bullets with Exposed Lead: Add 1/8 tsp of Technical Grade Moly per 5 pounds (35,000 grains) of bullets. Do not tumble for more than two hours. Clean bowl after each use.
Cast Bullets: Cast lead bullets should be moly coated before being lubed. Moly coating does not replace cast bullet lube. Add 1/4 tsp of Technical Grade Moly per 5 pounds (35,000 grains) of bullets. Do not tumble for more than 30 minutes. Clean bowl after coating 50 pounds of bullets.
Bowl Cleaning: Cleaning the bowl is easily done by using corn cob or walnut media soaked with a bore cleaner (MidwayUSA’s Uni-Solv™ Bore Solvent). Use enough media to fill the bowl above the stain caused by the Technical Grade Moly in the bowl. Pour 3-4 tablespoons of bore cleaner into the media with the tumbler running. Allow the mixture to tumble for 30 minutes or until the bowl is clean. When clean, the bowl should be wiped out with a cloth and degreased with dish washing detergent and water.
The color of the Moly-coated bullet may range from a bronze color to a very dark silver color. The color will vary from lot to lot and from manufacturer to manufacturer.
NOTE: 1 pound = 7,000 grains.
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| Thu May 07, 2009 5:07 pm |
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CrazyHoe
Joined: 19 Feb 2008
Posts: 2670
Location: Mtl; '98 2dr4x4 Tahoe, L31,Hookers Long T, 0411,EFIlive, 4L80-E,dual 3" pipes,next:marine+Whipp
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http://www.superfrictionfighter.com/new_page_3.htm
Q. How does it work?
When added to the engine oil the Super Friction Fighter (MoS2 also known as “Moly“) circulates with the oil and plates onto the metal surfaces, enhancing the fluid’s lubricating and protective properties by preventing metal to metal contact.
ORDER MORE FAQ Instructions Big Rig MPG's Contact US Big Rig kit HOME PAGE Fleet sales
Q. What is "Moly" ?
A. “ Moly” is the short name for the substance known as ( it’s scientific name) Molybdenum disulfide. “Moly” (Molybdenum disulfide also called out as MoS2) is a naturally occurring mineral, formed and mined with other ores in various parts of the world. It is highly refined and processed into sub-micron particle size at which time it can be used as a “solid lubricant.” It possesses the properties of being able to withstand extremely high load capacities (400,000 psi). It is chemically stable, has a very low coefficient of friction (0.05 to 0.09 in powder form) and has thermo-stability over 2,000°F. All of these properties are essential to reduce metal to metal contact and thereby reduce friction, heat, and wear.
Q. What is the difference between Molybdenum Disulfide (MoS2= Super Friction Fighter) and Teflon (PATE) in terms of Solid Lubricants?
A. Both materials are very slippery. Molybdenum Disulfide, or Moly, is a naturally occurring inert mineralization that will sustain loads in excess of 400,000 psi, while PTFE, a manufactured chemical, can only sustain loads in the 350 to 450 psi range. MoS2 remains effective up to its melting point exceeding 2,000°F while PTFE forms a noxious gas near 650°F. Some of this gas will invariably bypass the rings. Additionally, PTFE particle size is inconsistent and generally too large to remain in suspension in the oil. PTFE tends to “b all-up” or congeal at high temperatures, creating the possibility of plugging oil passages or pick-up screens.
Q. Will Super Friction Fighter help my vehicle save gas?
A. The primary result of using Super Friction Fighter (MoS2) is the reduction of friction. The results of lowered friction are lower operating temperatures, reduced wear, reduced fuel consumption, reduced emissions, prolonged life, and increased horsepower. In many cases this DOES increase gas mileage, but that can depend on the kind of vehicle and how you drive.
NOTE*Most recently I installed Super Friction Fighter in a 1995 ford van with a 300 ci. 6 cylinder motor in it. At the time of instillation the van had 142,000+ miles on it. When I put the Super Friction Fighter in the engine oil in the van it was getting 11.2 MPG. Approximately 1,400 miles later (and with the same oil in the engine) the van was (and on last checking) getting 13.7 in town. After installing the Super Friction Fighter oil additive there have been times that this van has gotten what seems to be unbelievable mileage. The averaging highway mileage is up from the 11.2 to an average of 14.2 to 14.7 on the open highway. These are real numbers.
Q. Can Super friction Fighter be used in a high mileage car as well as an engine with 20-30K miles on it?
A. Yes, and it could help prolong the life. However, it is not intended to be a cure in a can. It will not “fix” a pre-existing problem. Best results are gained if Moly is used throughout the vehicle’s life. Read more… Super Friction Fighter (”Moly”) is so slippery that you should only install it in engines that have had either the time or the miles to be broken in. It’s our opinion that with most vehicles this occurs after the vehicle has a minimum of around 10-15K miles on it. This may very according to manufactures and cylinder wall metals. For most vehicles it may be (check with your mechanic) safe to say that an engine should be well broken in if it has 20-30K on it.
Q. Can oil change intervals be extended with the use of "Super Friction Fighter"?
A. It is recommended that you stay within the manufacturers’ suggested intervals, regardless of whether using Super Friction Fighter or any other oil supplement or additive.
Q. Is Super Friction Fighter worth using if I change my oil every 2,000 or 3,000 miles?
A. The MoS2 uses the oil as a carrier to circulate throughout the engine and plate onto all points of contact under heat and pressure. Once the MoS2 has plated (after about two hours of driving time), the oil could be removed but the MoS2 in Super Friction Fighter will remain on the surfaces for several thousand miles. Therefore, we recommend that Super Friction Fighter be added every 6,000 miles regardless of how often the oil is changed.
Q. Can Super Friction Fighter be used with synthetic oils as well as non synthetic oils?
A. Yes. Although synthetic oils are designed to outlast mineral oils and have a very good high temperature stability, they sometimes have a lower sheer strength. MoS2 has a sheer strength in excess of 200,000 psi., and therefore is an excellent supplement to synthetic oils.
ORDER MORE FAQ Instructions Big Rig MPG's Contact US Big Rig kit HOME PAGE Fleet sales
Super Friction Fighter CAN NOT be used in 2 stroke (mixed oil and gas) engines, or any power train that has a WET CLUTCH.
Molybdenum disulfide ( Super Friction Fighters MoS2) IS the bench mark that ALL other engine oil additives are and have been judged by.
Return to Home page
ORDER NOW!! CLICK HERE
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| Thu May 07, 2009 5:17 pm |
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CrazyHoe
Joined: 19 Feb 2008
Posts: 2670
Location: Mtl; '98 2dr4x4 Tahoe, L31,Hookers Long T, 0411,EFIlive, 4L80-E,dual 3" pipes,next:marine+Whipp
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http://www.superfrictionfighter.com/new_page_1.htm
Super Friction Fighter
Instructions for use
How much oil does one bottle of Super Friction Fighter treat?
One bottle of “dry” Super Friction Fighter is meant to treat an oil capacity of 4-5 quarts. If your engine holds 8-12 quarts of crank case oil than use 1.5-2.0 bottles of Super Friction Fighter.
When installing more than one quart of treated oil I would make the treated oil the 2nd, and 3rd quart of oil in the re-insulation.
Instillation:
1.) Empty the contents of one (1) bottle in to a quart of motor oil, and shake it VIGOROUSLY for one minuet, or until all the material from the bottle of SUPER FRICTION FIGHTER (engine oil additive) is equally distributed in that quart of oil.
* To know the proper number of quarts of crank case oil for your particular vehicle you may need to check with the manufacture, a professional mechanic, or the appropriate work shop manual for your vehicle.
2.) It’s my experience that the first quart of oil kind of wets the oil filler tube allowing the maximum amount of the Super Friction Fighter to “slide” down the oil filler tube. The remaining 2 to 3 quarts of oil help “wash” any of the suspended Super Friction Fighter down the filler tube.
3.) After insulation / refilling the crank case with the proper volume of oil (number of quarts) it’s recommended that you then start up the vehicle and run the motor (preferably drive the vehicle) for a 10-15 minuet period. This amount of “run time” helps to assure that the Super Friction Fighter is equally distributed through out ALL oil in the crank case, and has ALREADY started working.
4.) After the original 10-15 minuet run period (just after insulation) continue to drive your vehicle as you have and would normally.
We would recommend that when refilling an engine with a 4 to5 quart capacity (4 quarts of oil would normally be an oil change with out a new oil filter, and a 5 quart re-fill would normally be with the changing of the oil filter) that you install the treated quart of oil as the second or third quart of oil installed.
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| Thu May 07, 2009 5:22 pm |
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CrazyHoe
Joined: 19 Feb 2008
Posts: 2670
Location: Mtl; '98 2dr4x4 Tahoe, L31,Hookers Long T, 0411,EFIlive, 4L80-E,dual 3" pipes,next:marine+Whipp
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Well there you go Ben, someone has bottle your molyb wizardry...
I think I'd rather buy 1lbs @ 50$ from a chem plant and make my own mix than trust someone else....
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| Thu May 07, 2009 5:26 pm |
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Bent1
Joined: 01 Jan 2000
Posts: 1711
Location: SF Bayarea CA 1996 K3500/Sub/7.4L
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ditto not trusting them, but then never really know till thousands of
miles later whether their powdered stuff and your home brew has
worked.
Key is whether it is suspended evenly and that it will then plate.
Think I know one aspect of that companies secret sauce and is
that they oxidized (burned it into an ash), then processed it into
the oil carrier. Asked the old man about synthetic and he said
they tried that and stuck with dino oil, but wouldn't tell me why.
I'd consider joining a group buy of some powdered and make some
home brew. Wish still had my guys in the labs. They had the know how
and the instruments to test any home brew we could dream up.
Testimonials must be factored against the person providing it. Most I've
read is questionable, IMHO.
There was a chem engineer scientist at SunLabs who knew enough
and was also interested in this. He said there is another form of molyb
and I have that series of emails somewhere in another HDD (Unix/Solaris
email, so this crappie PC's windoz has a problem with it). Yeah, more
stuff added to my plate that is already spilling over.
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| Thu May 07, 2009 9:57 pm |
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Bent1
Joined: 01 Jan 2000
Posts: 1711
Location: SF Bayarea CA 1996 K3500/Sub/7.4L
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Molyb is really a good thing to have on performance level engines.
For that instance(s) when the oil PSI/GPH dips at WOT and the journal
bearings go metal to metal.
Built, big blocks and anything forced fed can really use this.
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| Thu May 07, 2009 10:03 pm |
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CrazyHoe
Joined: 19 Feb 2008
Posts: 2670
Location: Mtl; '98 2dr4x4 Tahoe, L31,Hookers Long T, 0411,EFIlive, 4L80-E,dual 3" pipes,next:marine+Whipp
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Ben,
do you have it in a solution or in powder form?
If in powder, Can you take picks?
I'm curious, what color is it?
Does it feel like talc powder?
Is it cold to the touch?
I'm guessing you got to be careful not to breath it?
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| Fri May 08, 2009 5:40 am |
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Bent1
Joined: 01 Jan 2000
Posts: 1711
Location: SF Bayarea CA 1996 K3500/Sub/7.4L
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>>>>>>do you have it in a solution or in powder form?
>>>>>>If in powder, Can you take picks?
Automotive is in solution (dino oil). Suspended in engine oil
and gear oil.
'Had' a bottle of powder. Used on nephew's Toyota pickup 4x4's
open diff. Instantly solved the noise, but then he went out and
bought a locker. So wasted and he's the one who started to give
it away to his buddies after telling him 'my' stash limited and
expensive to impossible to replace.
Used to toss in some powder in my transfer cases. My 73 K5 Blazer's
NP203 developed a 'squeak' that wouldn't go away. Found that the
earlier versions had too small a dia rollers (had to hold them in
the casting race with vasoline else they fell out while putting in the
shaft). Instantly quieted that thing and it also ran much cooler. On
that, noodling a NP205 with a doubler for my 96 Suburban...if...I
ever get to redesigning it's running gear (front Dana 60 or 70 is
my desire).
Powder for my guns. It has to be 'worked' in order to plate.
Hasn't helped my shooting. Am a poor shot and try to get as much
help as possible. Not enough practice.
>>>>>>I'm curious, what color is it?
Black with grayish tint.
>>>>>>Does it feel like talc powder?
>>>>>>Is it cold to the touch?
Don't know. Too expensive to waste that way. Scared about breathing
it till just now checking it's haz mat sheet (didn't have those sheets
back then). Worked with PCB, asbestos & beryllium oxide on some of my
designs and learned to appreciate how dangerous they were. Where got
the basis info to invent diamond foam.
>>>>>>I'm guessing you got to be careful not to breath it?
It's not listed (just checked) as a poison or carcinogen, but nothing should
be inhaled for long periods. Am sure there are folks out there who will
have an allergic reaction, but it seems to be pretty benign health wise.
http://www.2spi.com/catalog/msds/msds429ml.html
http://www.msdshazcom.com/COMMON/WCD0001A/WCD01A47.HTM
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| Fri May 08, 2009 7:24 am |
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CrazyHoe
Joined: 19 Feb 2008
Posts: 2670
Location: Mtl; '98 2dr4x4 Tahoe, L31,Hookers Long T, 0411,EFIlive, 4L80-E,dual 3" pipes,next:marine+Whipp
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http://www.msdshazcom.com/COMMON/WCD0001A/WCD01A47.HTM
Respiratory Protection : USE NIOSH APPROVED ORGANIC RESPIRATOR IF TWA/TLV LIMITS ARE EXCEEDED
Ventilation : LOCAL EXHAUST:USE TO MAINTAIN LEVELS BELOW TWA LIMITS. MECHANICAL:USE
NON-SPARKING EQUIPMENT
Protective Gloves : CHEMICAL RESISTANT GLOVES
Eye Protection : SAFETY GLASSES OR GOGGLES
Other Protective Equipment : NONE
Work Hygenic Practices : WASH HANDS AFTER HANDLING
SECTION IX - Label Data
Protect Eye : YES
Protect Skin : YES
Protect Respiratory : YES
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| Fri May 08, 2009 7:47 am |
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CrazyHoe
Joined: 19 Feb 2008
Posts: 2670
Location: Mtl; '98 2dr4x4 Tahoe, L31,Hookers Long T, 0411,EFIlive, 4L80-E,dual 3" pipes,next:marine+Whipp
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Bent1 wrote:
Can't remember the name of the company, nor it's 'brand', but not material
as they are out of biz decades ago. Looked a few times, but most of the
sources found sounded too much like snake oil pitches and I 'had' a few
gallons of the stuff in my stock back then. Kills me that nephew 'gave' a
couple of gallons (or more) to his buddies after being shown my stash.
There were only two sources with military approval and can't remember
the other one (they were not as good, IIRC...both to deal with and their
product). Processing it down to 1-2 microns was pretty high science back
then. Wonder/hope that material science is better today. Why laugh when
hear folks still pitching Teflon (PTFE...Slick 50), as it is a plastic and has
a higher rate of expansion than molyb. It also starts out bigger in particle
size, so usage in an engine will have it filtered out quickly and it will clump
to potentially plug engine oil galleries.
It plates out of the engine oil and just change the oil as usual. Since plated,
it stays on the parts touched by engine oil.
I'll see if you made up a new thread and respond/comment over there.
Note said 'hard chrome' and the specific process was by 'Electrolize' or
some such company/brand name. That was their claim, as their's didn't
flake off easily.
Plus all hard chrome has 'some' surface cracks, which acts like the cross
hatch grind as the final step on engine cylinder work. Those cracks act like
the valleys of the cross hatch to hold lube to be wiped over the high spots
by the piston rings.
The material read back then theorized that an iron block best as it
won't have the flexing that those cycle engines. Where Harley took up
the challenge and made up some custom proto's that I've never heard
what happened.
Still cheaper to use molybdenum disulfide and it has a lower co-efficient of
friction....but....hard chrome is better at one spot and that is at the top of
the cylinder. Molybdenum will wear off and hard chrome was shown to last
longer there in the test data I saw back then.
After all this time, is your Molyb still suspended in the oil or has it deposited?
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| Fri May 08, 2009 6:18 pm |
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Bent1
Joined: 01 Jan 2000
Posts: 1711
Location: SF Bayarea CA 1996 K3500/Sub/7.4L
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Whatever hasn't plated is tossed with the next oil change.
Why it's tough to know/prove if the stuff plated, where, and how well.
My only 'proof' has to do with the temp gages on small displacement
ICEs noticeably drop, higher PSI and longevity. Plus a few accidents
that didn't kill the ICE.
MGB had an oil filter that had the element replaced and a big O-Ring.
Messed up and it blew all of the oil out and ran it for about 5 minutes
with *NOTHING* in there. When I rebuilt it (milled the head and added
a higher lift cam, found NO marks on the crank/bearings/etc).
Datsun 240Z both over rev'd it (compression test, wired it WOT and forgot
about that...restarted it and the tack needle bounced *2* times off of
the peg and back to hold there till figured out to just turn off the ignition)
and when I was playing with the oil pump washers and spring. Then blew out
the front cover gasket twice and ran it without oil for a bit at WOT. After
I blew the tranny racing a 911S, found no damage to anything inside engine.
Plus a few incidents with the Toyota FJ40, K5 Blazer and tranny/diffs proves and
confirmed it to 'me' that the stuff works.
The stuff shipped off to military/NASA certification had oil analysis & tests
done and saw that they confirmed both in the oil and plated.
Back then, considered almost a secret sauce type of thing. Today, it's in
just about all lube's you can buy COTS.
Issue is the snake oil types who just have 'enough' in there to claim, but
not enough to do a good job of it.
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| Fri May 08, 2009 6:51 pm |
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CrazyHoe
Joined: 19 Feb 2008
Posts: 2670
Location: Mtl; '98 2dr4x4 Tahoe, L31,Hookers Long T, 0411,EFIlive, 4L80-E,dual 3" pipes,next:marine+Whipp
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Sorry Ben, I was talking about your supply not what's in the engine. Do you need to shake it before you pour it in?
I'm wondering if the molyb binds to the dino molecules and not the syntec ones??
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| Fri May 08, 2009 7:27 pm |
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Bent1
Joined: 01 Jan 2000
Posts: 1711
Location: SF Bayarea CA 1996 K3500/Sub/7.4L
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Oh, the stuff does settle and need to shake it up to re-suspend it
in the carrier oil.
I too suspected something like that, but the old guy didn't answer
why they didn't use synthetic. Most likely why, when it would
increase their cost and little benefit to the end user.
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| Fri May 08, 2009 8:12 pm |
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CrazyHoe
Joined: 19 Feb 2008
Posts: 2670
Location: Mtl; '98 2dr4x4 Tahoe, L31,Hookers Long T, 0411,EFIlive, 4L80-E,dual 3" pipes,next:marine+Whipp
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Same guy on ebay...
snake oil
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| Sat May 09, 2009 5:14 pm |
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Aloicious
Joined: 14 Apr 2007
Posts: 1618
Location: 96, C1500, LS31, T56, 24x CNP/LS2 coils, Whipple, 411, EFILive, MPFI, ZZ4, Trutrac, 4.88...etc
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This is a very interesting thread guys, thanks for the info so far.
so, can moly powder be added to ATF for manual transmissions that call for ATF to be used as lube? (i.e. T56?). I think I'll be doing some research tonight to learn more.
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| Sat May 09, 2009 5:55 pm |
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CrazyHoe
Joined: 19 Feb 2008
Posts: 2670
Location: Mtl; '98 2dr4x4 Tahoe, L31,Hookers Long T, 0411,EFIlive, 4L80-E,dual 3" pipes,next:marine+Whipp
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The only major restriction for molyb use is that you absolutely cannot use it in anything that has clutches.
After searching the internet on molyb, I've found many corvettes/camaros forums where users had their oils tested for engine health analysis. Molyb was on the list of elements. I don't know if molyb is part of engine oil formulation but it seams that way for some brands.
wiki wrote:Molybdenum disulfide is often a component of blends and composites where low friction is sought. A variety of oils and greases are used, because they retain their lubricity even in cases of almost complete oil loss, thus finding a use in critical applications such as aircraft engines.
MoS2 is unreactive, so it shouldn't cause any problems with seals.
I don't know if what's available commercially today is comparable to what Ben had 10+ years ago, but you can buy Super fine grade (1.5um) molybdenum disulphide for about 50$/lbs
http://www.rosemill.com/product.asp?productid=258465
I would also caution on the amount to use as it will raise the oil pressure. You are adding a "solid" to the oil after all....
JR96CK might find this useful...
Unfortunately, I wouldn't recommend it for your T56. It might cause the syncros to slip too much and not mesh properly.
Interesting...
A non-settling colloidal dispersion of Super Fine grade Molybdenum disulphide (Moly) lubricant
http://www.lubritek.com/product/DSL315
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| Sat May 09, 2009 7:40 pm |
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