Those areas mentioned to be burnished by hand is just that little extra

Cylinder walls has as a final step to hone it with a special grinding stone
in a special way to attain a cross hatched pattern.

That pattern is to have tiny scratches with hills and valleys that the piston
ring rides on.

During break in, the rings seat and wear down the hills into plateaus.

The valleys will then be the reservoirs for oil that the rings will then
wipe onto the plateaus.

Piston oil rings wipe it a bit, but leaves enough to do the job.

The compression rings then ride on a film of engine oil and in a perfect
world, never touches metal to metal. So theoretically never wears out
the metal.

If the hills are not shaped/worn correctly, it will never run as well or up
to its potential.

Being 'easy' on it during the break in is NOT the correct way for TODAYs
engines, but not too hard either. Do a search on this board for 'break in
procedure' and you'll find my write up (really a repost from a motorcycle
article).

With the new crate engine about ready for MoS treatment, going to need some
more sooner than I thought. So let me know the specifics of the deal. A baggy
within in a baggy should be okay. Maybe 3 layers to be extra safe from
spillage during shipment.

What was that Lucas treatment to suspend it in oil?

Alright guys, I goto the stuff in today, CONSERVATIVELY, it looks like I got 50 heaping tablespoons.

Bent, I'm not sure about making anything with Lucas... so not sure if that question was directed at me.

For anyone that needs any, drop me a PM and let me know how much and where you want it shipped. After the shipping it works out to about 1.20 a tablespoon. And I figure it's so light that it'll be super cheap to send quite a bit, so I'm going to just say a buck for shipping unless you're asking for a whole bunch.

anyone try this stuff?

Maybe get some along with the muffler bearings am noodling


http://kalecoauto.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=7


Seriously, wondering if the raw powder will need something to help
suspend it, or will it just mix in easily

I dunno about that stuff Bent,

Some of the reviews seem shady, sarcastic, or inappropriate. Like this one:

"Before I used this product my engine was loud and consumed a lot of gas. After using this excellent item it made no noise at all!! It was so much quieter. Unbelievable! And I had so much fun to rebuilt it again. And thats not enough, after rebulding it I had some parts left that didn't fit in the engine again. I will sell them in ebay and get a lot more money back than this superb product cost! Thank you Kalecoauto!"

Parts wouldn't fit back into the engine??? What??

And this one...

"I found this product worked great on my Trabant. It did a much better job that the sand based product I used to buy from East Berlin. "

SAND??
Besides, with such abrassive sounding product sounds like it'd eat away at piston seals, and camshaft / rollers.

Trinten wrote:

I dunno about that stuff Bent,

Some of the reviews seem shady, sarcastic, or inappropriate. Like this one:

"Before I used this product my engine was loud and consumed a lot of gas. After using this excellent item it made no noise at all!! It was so much quieter. Unbelievable! And I had so much fun to rebuilt it again. And thats not enough, after rebulding it I had some parts left that didn't fit in the engine again. I will sell them in ebay and get a lot more money back than this superb product cost! Thank you Kalecoauto!"

Parts wouldn't fit back into the engine??? What??

And this one...

"I found this product worked great on my Trabant. It did a much better job that the sand based product I used to buy from East Berlin. "

SAND??
Besides, with such abrassive sounding product sounds like it'd eat away at piston seals, and camshaft / rollers.

The whole site is a joke

http://kalecoauto.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=6

http://kalecoauto.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2&products_id=45

Yup, gotta watch Bent. He's so serious in his postings on this board that when he does cut a joke it can catch you completely by surprise.

Dead give away...

-->
--> Maybe get some along with the muffler bearings am noodling

I want this, anyone got $175,000 I can have?
http://kalecoauto.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=6&products_id=28

Gads...Muffler bearings....gotta put in those smiles

Lawn mower likes the gear moly (no filter). it starts easier, and uses less gasoline
by one mowing (full tank mows my small lawn 5 times and this tank did 6 times).
Think I'll not change the oil every season, or maybe that is being a bit too cheap
squeezing the penny a bit too hard...

Bought an old rototiller and going to clean it up after getting it started. Treatment
and hope it likes it too. The worm gear needs moly rich grease.

New crate engine and diff rebuild breaking in, so my stock is going down fast
and even faster now that 2 nephews are onto this (turbo Cummins 2500HD
and WRX-STI/Suzuki Samuri). I might buy daughters Suzuki V-Twin (still
scared and Ken's latest not helping noodling that).

Trinten, how much are you willing to sell. I still don't know how much I'll
need/want. Lots is about the best I can say....dependent on cost.

Curious why they limit it to 200 lbs per customer on Internet purchases. Wonder
if per order, or life time. Wacky...as if extremely rare....or snake oil marketing????

Did you check their actual size and/or did you send some to Ben Jr to measure?

Going to get some 10-30um for gear boxes, even though the same price as the
1.5um. Thinking that the larger particle size will do better to protect the gear faces
than a smaller particle on both surfaces.

Going to get some of their grease too and note that they say clearance. Wonder
how long this will be, end of life for that product, going out of biz????
5lb pail $29.50 and 40lb bucket $155.00

I'm much older than most of you guys (even Old Pete.... ) and thought I bought
enough for the rest of my life. Missed that by a big margin (guess a good thing)
and going to make another, but now know most likely will outlive this batch...

I've got to get moving on this and need feed back from anyone who bought
in addition to Trinten

http://www.rosemill.com/product.asp?productid=258465

Just finished viewing their 'Cherry Red-instant case hardening compound' and now
a bit concerned.

Kinda sorta Carburizing and wonder what that powder really is. Nothing exotic
as Carburizing has been around since the middle ages when they used charcoal

Plus to show a Rockwell number with a push punch, almost stupid. As the real
Rockwell way uses a diamond ball with a controlled pressure on a ram.

Hey Bent!

I have not sent any to Ben Jr for measurement, I certainly can though!

And going by your original mention of using a tablespoon every 10-15k miles... I'm pretty open to selling most of it. I figure it'll take two tablespoons or so to burnish my parts, then another 5 tablepsoons for future use. That leaves quite a bit I'm willing to part with!

There's those "flat-rate" shipping boxes that USPS uses now, I don't know the details on them, but if you want to buy alot of it I'll probably use that.

I'll drop Ben a PM if he doesn't say anything here and see how much he needs from me for a good cross-section measurement.

We test the Rockwell of our parts with a device that you hit with a hammer but there's more to it than a simple punch.
Then the indentation is analyzed with an optical measuring tool just like the video.

For testing, all I need is 1/4 teaspoon but I would buy 1 once (weight).

You can have the post office weight an empty enveloppe with the baggies to get a reference weight without the molyb.
Then you'll know exactly how much molyb you're sending when it's filled.


For a 1/4 teaspoon:
If you could find a tiny container so it doesn't spread all over the baggy that would be great.
Or put the sample in a corner of the baggy then tie-wrap the sample to keep it confined to the smallest area.
Then double bag it.

For an once:
You could probably use a Ziploc snack bag which is 1/2 the size of a sandwich bag then double bag it.

I burnished my main bearings with WS2:


You can see the one on the right is more uniformed in color and is blue.

I tried to do the crank's journal but it didn't work. The surface is too smooth for adhesion.


-Ben Jr-

The WS2 I had used in 79-84 looked different color.

Went looking and only found these two sites, but my stuff looked
darker and more blue/grey. Kinda pretty and took the finish of
the base part. From mirror smooth to textured. So it should have
coated your crank.

IIRC, Diversified Dry Lube used a liquid medium or carrier. They
said and did coat anything, even stainless polished to a mirror
finish.

Darker and more blue than the images below.



http://www.uccomponents.com/default.asp?pg=coatings
Color is a dull gray for MoS2 and a blue-gray for WS2.







GUIDE to Bullet Coating
Coating Bullets with Boron Nitride, Tungsten Disulfide, or MOLY
http://www.6mmbr.com/bulletcoating.html





Got your PM and will be sending some samples in the next two
weeks (lots of lawyer time these next few weeks).

-Old Ben

Crazy,

Thanks for the tips and ideas! We have a mail weigh scale at work, so I can do that tomorrow. I was going to try to find something similiar to precription bottles... or perhaps those "essential oils" bottles.

Can you PM me where you'd like me to send the stuff and I'll get it off to you ASAP!!

Trinten wrote:

Crazy,

Thanks for the tips and ideas! We have a mail weigh scale at work, so I can do that tomorrow. I was going to try to find something similiar to precription bottles... or perhaps those "essential oils" bottles.

Can you PM me where you'd like me to send the stuff and I'll get it off to you ASAP!!

That's great, measuring by weight is going to be more accurate.
I think baggies should be fine as long as there's no air in them.

-Ben jr.

Tap Plastics, or any supply like store should have tiny baggies
about 1" x 1.5" with a zip lock end.

Then I'm going to heat seal it inside of a regular baggy
with the vacuum bag food system.

Then make a hollow out of a stack of papers (like hollowing out
a book for that gun you see in the movies all the time), or some
such to lessen the possibility of it getting smashed in the mail.
Maybe Styrofoam sheet if I can find it (keep all Styrofoam peanuts,etc
in a large garbage bag, as local land fill won't take it, so keep it
as my stock to send out for you to keep for your stock)

http://www.tapplastics.com/
http://www.tapplastics.com/shop/product.php?pid=249&


-Ben Sr

Overkill!

Ben, if you're only going to send 1/4 tea spoon in those tiny bags, I don't think you need to go through all that trouble.

Maybe it's better to let it spread in the bag, I can always squidgy it back up...

Same with the dry powder, if no air, it's quite resistant to pressure.

Use bubble envelope: good enough protection.

Bent1, regarding the WS2 color differences you mentioned earlier, this is typically due to the conditions under which the WS2 is produced, and post processing that is done to the WS2. Factors such as milling method, milling media, drying temperatures, contaminants, etc.

Also regarding the comment to avoid Moly on the cylinder walls of fresh builds, I would ask for some thoughts on this from the standpoint that many of the aftermarket piston rings, and some of the OEM rings are Moly and Tungsten Disulfide coated and placed into service in new engines. Often the Moly is even sputter or plasma coated to build up an excess layer which is intended to wear down. Wouldn't this be counter intuitive to standard perceptions of break in and such since those rings are transferring Moly or WS2 directly to those same freshly cross hatched cylinders?


Ben, Jr. it highly polished surfaces are more difficult to generate the friction needed to really burnish the WS2 or MoS2 and are usually best treated by air impinging. Tumble or vibratory burnishing can have acceptable results, but be careful to avoid degrading the polishing job.


Totally out of left field here, but I was curious if anyone has any thoughts on where to find data on area of friction surfaces compared to engine displacement? Is there any "Rough Estimate" that could be applied given all of the variables that are possible, or is it just too diverse to ballpark?

Coronamaker, very good comments and questions. Here is my take on it.

Moly has been an alloy to steel for decades and not for lube, but for strength
and hardness. Key is that it is alloyed into the metal, not plated.

If the new rings have MoS2 and WS2 sputtered or other methods of 'plating',
then it is not an alloy, but a lube coating or better anti-friction coating.

Haven't any knowledge that the new rings have this and will have to noodle
it a bit on the breaking procedure I like. First blush is that the hills and valleys
of the cylinder cross hatch grind still wears the hills down to flat plateaus's, but
slower.

Some of the guys over at the Suburban forum now SUV/truck/car www.oursuv.com.
Toured the GM plant that produces the big block. They are engineers and got a
chance meeting with the design engineering team.

One point they made was that today's 8.1L comes with stainless rings and
it takes well over 20K to some times 40K miles to fully break in (fully seat
the rings against the cylinder walls). Wish I was there to explore that further.

Does anyone have info on that and if coated with either MoS2 or WS2. Is that
why such an extended break in? If not, what is going on?

My break in procedure is not common, but common knowledge is that the
cross hatch and it's condition inspecting the engine on a tear down indicative
of how it is or has performed. If it is still there, good, if gone, worn badly.

Good point on burnishing. Almost an oxymoron that. Hadn't put much thought
into that and now that you mention it...of course friction is what burnishing is
all about. Maybe a small cotton buffing wheel on a hand drill with MoS2 or WS2
sprinkled on. Dust would be an issue.

This is really over the top and only for us anal about this or extreme top end
to do this.

Which is to your point of friction surface area. I've noticed that on small
displacement engines, noticeable the affect of MoS2 to the engine oil.
Mainly the temp goes down significantly enough to see on the dash gauge.
Don't see that on larger displacement and think the friction reduction is
lost in the noise...

The other thing noticeable takes too long for most to ever see. That is my
engines last a looooooooooooong time. I'm old enough to have gone through
many, many of mine, families that I take care of and buddies who I've talked
into MoS2.

Guessimation of the various areas that would benefit the most. Figure them out
for each, then the simple math of multiplying dependent on whether 4/6/8 cylinders.

Cam lobe
Lifter to cam lobe
Lifter to cylinder wall
Lifter to push rod end
Push rod end to rocker
Rocker to valve stem
Valve stem to valve guide (that is one area that really could benefit)
Crank journals floated by engine oil, so does that count? Ditto cam, right?
Wrist pin to piston/rod
Piston to cylinder wall

Then the misc stuff where I think plays large. Timing gears, timing chain,
oil pump shaft, oil pump gear set...did I miss anything?

Just another thought...

This is where WS2 and Diversified Dry Lube comes in. I've always had them
in the back of my mind for my best engine build. Send them the parts and
have them plate WS2.

Why asked Speeder to check them out to see if they were still there as
hadn't used them in decades.

IIRC, their process was pretty cheap and non intrusive to whatever. Food
grade, so they can plate just about anything. They said cold process and
did not affect surface finish, nor temper.

The main things I wanted to plate by them were the valve guides, the valves,
timing everything (gears, chain, etc), oil pump, cam and the pistons. They had
a problem with larger stuff.

They also masked off areas if you wished.

Coronamaker, is your process similar or if different, how so? I never actually
explored Diversified other than that they were spec'd out by contract and
that they delivered with little fan fare (just did what was asked and quickly).

The only 'problem' was that they didn't at that time, like small orders. Didn't
say directly, but could tell from the delivery or turn times.