Wow that stinks. Glad I went with the Molyb. It mixed very well and stayed in suspension.

AD

Crazy, I figured that would be about the end result. Was that the 50/50 blend you mentioned earlier, and what kind of oil? I am interested in the additive package in your oil specifically the dispersant. Typically I wouldn't expect 0.6µ material to stay in suspension for more than a few days max without a really robust dispersant package, or an additive like Lucas to hold it. I know everyone has an opinion about Lucas, I am only mentioning it as an example, not a recommendation.

Seeing as WS2 has a substantial difference in mass, I have read that you would need to get to a particle size of 0.3µ or less than as an "Untreated" powder. I have played with WS2 a bit over the years, and with treatment have suspended 0.5µ material for 3 or more weeks without agitation in standard Oil 5W-20 at rates of up to 13 grams per quart, but it is easier to suspend finer particles for sure. I have also tested WS2 sub 0.3µ and it stays in suspension pretty well without any "help" but it seems a bit harder to blend up completely. Not sure, but possibly due to the surface tension of the oil on the smaller particles like chocolate milk mix when you pour the milk on it. Once blended though, it seems very stable.

I took the following picture if it is of any interest:
WS2 in Oil THIS IS NOT an Apples to Apples Comparison

On left .5µ WS2 "Untreated" after 4 days at approximately 74 grams per quart. Sorry, I got a little ambitious. Will try to post a 13 gram/Qt if interested, but noted the oil has retained some material in suspension.

On right .5µ WS2 "Treated" 3 weeks at approximately 13 grams per quart.

Note the layer at the bottom of the left vial.

Oil 5W-20 Non-Synthetic.

Apologies in advance for the picture quality all I had was my cell phone. It gives you the basic idea though.



Well Crazy, that's about it for now, if you want, I can shoot you a small zip lock bag (5-10 Grams) of some of the powder I have played around with. It has been treated for oil suspension, so it would not be good for dry applications like coating bullets and such. If you are interested, let me know and we can trade info. Since you are actively messing with the stuff, I would be interested to see what you come up with.

Any info on the chem to suspend particles?

Does it affect the oil and/or moly in any way?

The picture I posted of a bottle of gear oil moly is over 25 years
old. Hadn't settled much and I didn't shake it either before taking
this picture




Just ran out and took these pictures of my lawn mower. Used that same bottle
above (about half of what is left). Shook it real good and it's been in there
for a month or so (when I posted those pictures and Jr Ben asked/noted that
he could see particles).

Picture is of the dip stick and the oil has been sitting since the last mowing last
week (Friday). On the mower just out of the crank case and on my biz card.
It was clear and lighter than honey color before (dang, didn't take a pic). Mobil 1
synthetic and used gear moly because this doesn't have a filter for the engine oil.





The engine oil additive is even finer. Wonder if they used something to suspend or
is the particulate size small enough to suspend it all these years?

Sr. Ben, as far as the oil suspension chemistry, I have tested a number of possibles though surely not all. As stated before Lucas worked well, but not everyone is a fan and understandably so. Other additives with good dispersant packages work pretty well too. This particular 0.5µ Tungsten Disulfide we have been manufacturing here is the USA for over 10 years now, and I have more recently been working on the chemistry to suspend it in oil as an integrated part of the post WS2 manufacturing processing. For now I am afraid can't comment on the specifics of the materials as it is sort of a work in progress. That is part of why this thread was of such interest to me personally. I have typically found that open minded people who actually test materials instead of just bashing everything as "Snake Oil" are hard to come across.

We initially started out manufacturing WS2 for spray coating operations, and then began addressing gearbox failures in industrial applications. In those gearbox applications suspension isn't so important as our customers run 24/7 and the material never comes out of suspension. Then along came a new client who wanted to do the whole "Engine Treatment" concept, but the quantity of WS2 needed in an 8 or 16 ounce bottle to treat an entire engine is supersaturated. Needless to say, it was a bear to shake back up once it came out of suspension, and you can't shake your engine up if you decide to let it sit in the drive for a week between drives right? Well, in reality the material does come back into the oil in most cases, but at a less than optimal rate, so we needed a suspension method.

So anyway, in a nutshell that is how I have gotten to the material in it's current state, and why I can't be more specific about how I am doing it. The added material does not affect the WS2, oil, or any of the engine components, and since it is bonded to the WS2 in processing, there is no "excess" material free in the oil initially. As the WS2 coats out to the friction surfaces of the engine, gearbox, etc. the displaced material acts just as like a standard dispersant in the oil carrying any contaminant material it comes across to the filter for removal.

Some of our upcoming testing will involve material that is in the 0.1µ-0.2µ range to test suspension without additional chemistries, as well as for high speed applications such as dental drills, and bullet coatings. If you wish I will post the info that pertains to this topic when I have it. I am willing to share what I can, and if desired, I am also willing to provide "test/sample" material from ongoing work. I cannot sell anything as it is test material, as is, for your personal use. Even though we believe we are in the final stages the material is in development technically still so feedback would be appreciated, but that is all I would request.

Let me know your thoughts, I try to check in every few days.

Industrial applications is where I got into MoS. Used to be that industry and
government/Mil/etc business too. This was college (60's) through the late 80's.
Smattering of windgenerators in the mid 80's.

All and I mean ALL of the mil specifications called out MoS and learned of
WS2 on a Mil spec job & industrial job in the early 80's. They referenced
Diversified Dry Lube (Tulsa OK). Only a fluid sprayed app and could not
find much else, as it was tough to find info with out the Internet (had DARPA
NET, but nothing compared to today's).

Through the years found many, many sources of MoS, but never felt confident
after 'trying' to get information from those new suppliers and why I call them
snake oil vendors. Just note that I'll trying just about anything and have been
like that since a kid.

These additives are tough to prove and what results don't show up for years
and years later. The most dramatic has been MoS treatment in small displacement
engines, which have noted that their dash gauges drop 7*F or more with the
only change was addition of MoS to a new charge of engine oil.

Amazed that you guys have home instrumentation to actually measure down
to this level. I had the ability when at SunLabs, but laid off so no more.

I've not had time to study the info Jr Ben and you others have posted, but will
get to it soon.

So, yes, would love any and all info posted for us all.

Coronamaker wrote:

Crazy, I figured that would be about the end result. Was that the 50/50 blend you mentioned earlier, and what kind of oil? I am interested in the additive package in your oil specifically the dispersant. Typically I wouldn't expect 0.6µ material to stay in suspension for more than a few days max without a really robust dispersant package, or an additive like Lucas to hold it.

Sorry, I haven't had time to get too deep into this lately. I need to finish up my engine reassembly asap and it's taking me for ever since I keep adding to the to do list....

I wasn't too scientific about the WS2 mixing procedure since I only wanted something that would flow between the anvils of my micrometer. But I believe I used Mobile 1 full synth. 5w30 and a ratio of 50/50 approx. It had the consistency and color of molyb grease.

I want to repeat the experiment in a more controlled manner using chemistry beakers and stuff but lack the time...
(Vacation's over and back to working 86+ hours... )

Unfortunately, I can't play with this right now until my truck is back on the road.

Just came across this filter study, which is based on the original 1996 version (same guy)
but updated, while checking something for my new crate engine in the 1980 Silverado.

Since filtration key to this topic...why we want/need such small particulate size, think
germane to this conversation.

Here are the links and hope you guys also have other studies to toss in here to help
us decide on our filter. I'm a Purolator PureOne and Wix (NAPA gold) guy.

http://minimopar.knizefamily.net/oilfilterstudy.html
http://minimopar.knizefamily.net/oilfilters/index.html#sae
http://minimopar.knizefamily.net/oilfilters/reference.html
http://minimopar.knizefamily.net/oilfilters/hp1.html
http://minimopar.knizefamily.net/oilfilters/mopar.html
http://minimopar.knizefamily.net/oilfilters/german.html
http://minimopar.knizefamily.net/oilfilters/toyota.html
http://minimopar.knizefamily.net/oilfilters/index.html
http://minimopar.knizefamily.net/oilfilters/updates.html
http://minimopar.knizefamily.net/oilfilters/opinions.html

A couple of new ICE's in the family and cleaning up my stuff found that I
only have one gallon and partial jug of engine moly left. Was hoping that there
were a couple more gallons.

Started to get ready to add some to my new crate engine in the 1980
Silverado, then remembered this thread. Sorry, shook it before remembered.
The engine coming out had a cracked head and the engine builder said it
was ground a bit too thin in one area. Sold it for $500 bucks (280 cam, stainless
valves, etc...was that a good price for an engine that leaked oil to foul all
the plugs on one bank?)


Here are some pictures of that partial jug cut open. Shows it after about
5 shakes. Stirred and almost ready to add, but too hot and ran out of time.

The new jug had some settling and think this one is about +20 years old
and not shaken other than moving around.

Notice that it didn't settle that much and the bottom was not that hard to
stir up with that Popsicle stick. When scraping the bottom and there was
no line left, ready to pour into the engine. Going to mix it with more engine
oil before putting it into the engine.

When the weather cools a bit (94*F today), I'll tackle this some more.

I need to make a buy pretty soon.

Hi Ben, if you measure the remaining volume of oil and its weight in the container minus the weight of the empty jug, .
You can then figure out more exactly the concentration of molyb.

I can see sparkles in the molyb mud which suggests pretty big particles, way bigger than a couple of microns.
It seems you have a wide range of particle size.
Maybe they weren't able to control particle size as well as today?

CrazyHoe wrote:

I can see sparkles in the molyb mud which suggests pretty big particles, way bigger than a couple of microns.
It seems you have a wide range of particle size.
Maybe they weren't able to control particle size as well as today?

My thoughts exactly.

The stuff today should/must be more evenly filtered in size.

Original directions were to run it without a filter, as in those days automotive
filters were a re-usable metal can you tossed the element & replaced with a new
filter element. Just ran it without the element for a few hundred miles, then
added a new element.

I've been happy with this for decades and looking forward to more after a decision
is made on which vendor.

Rethinking on my usage metrics and going to use it more often (dependent on
how much both in $ & quantity).

No accurate scale that goes high enough to weigh a new jug.

Wondering what suspension additive, or it there is one. Does moly stay suspended
better than WS2?

-Ben

This looks like 1/3 molyb!

I'm guessing the concentration increased over time if not perfectly mixed each time you took some.

Thinking about 15%-20%, but no telling how concentrated the bottom is.

Can you guys sum up the current vendors, their pricing vs particulate size?

http://bobistheoilguy.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=54&Itemid=62

I ordered up a pound of the superfine MOS2 from Rosemill. Took longer than I figured to get the ball rolling on my engine, but now that it is (and my rotating assembly will be in soon), I went ahead and got it. I figure I'll use the "burnish" (sp) process to treat everything pre assembly, and have the builder chuck some in with the oil while he's running the bypass filter during the engine break in.

If anyone is interested in me shipping them some (a pound seems like it's going to be quite a bit), let me know and we'll figure out a fair price once I have the stuff in hand!

I'm in on getting some, but later today (have to take mom for a check up right now).

Hand burnish the push rod ends, rocker where it touches the push rod and valve stem,
tappets where it touches the cam and push rod, crank bearings, rod bears, wrist pins,
piston to wrist pin, dist gear and cam gear.

Avoid cylinder walls, as that cross hatch must wear in properly. Ditto the rings.

Bent,

You said to avoid the cylinder walls - I take that to mean I should also not put any of the moly in my oil? Since it'll get into the cross-hatching that way? And bond to the piston rings?

Thanks!

Also, talking about Mil Spec stuff... ran across this company - http://www.milspecoilsandlubes.com/main/mil_spec_grease_oils_etc.asp

Might be worth keeping on hand for lubrication of other components.

Trinten wrote:

Bent,

You said to avoid the cylinder walls - I take that to mean I should also not put any of the moly in my oil? Since it'll get into the cross-hatching that way? And bond to the piston rings?

Thanks!

Also, talking about Mil Spec stuff... ran across this company - http://www.milspecoilsandlubes.com/main/mil_spec_grease_oils_etc.asp

Might be worth keeping on hand for lubrication of other components.

.

I woudn't run it in any engine that isn't broken in yet. even burnishing some part of it, I'd focus on the points Ben mentioned, then after your engine is properly broken in I'd run it in the oil.

I'd be down for getting a portion of that from you as well.

Thanks for the tip Aloicious! I'll keep that in mind and burnish just the mentioned parts, and then add it after it's first oil change. Rosemill is sending me the stuff via UPS ground, but I haven't received a tracking number/shipping confirmation yet (not sure if they provide one automatically or not. I'll have to check my receipt and then contact them).

As soon as I get it I'll see if I can do a rough estimate of how many heaping tablespoons it works out to. Then just pick up some small, inexpensive plastic screwtop bottles or something for shipping it.

Trinten wrote:

Thanks for the tip Aloicious! I'll keep that in mind and burnish just the mentioned parts, and then add it after it's first oil change. Rosemill is sending me the stuff via UPS ground, but I haven't received a tracking number/shipping confirmation yet (not sure if they provide one automatically or not. I'll have to check my receipt and then contact them).

As soon as I get it I'll see if I can do a rough estimate of how many heaping tablespoons it works out to. Then just pick up some small, inexpensive plastic screwtop bottles or something for shipping it.

yeah no hurry, but I'll get some from you when its available.