Warning: Since the molyb particle size we will be using is in the lung damaging dust dimension ( 0.5 micron to 5 micron), proper care should be taken to protect yourself.
I strongly recommend using Organic Vapor/P100 Cartridge/Filter respirator

daddy_dandy wrote:

The question of how much to use keeps getting repeated. Are there any downfalls to using too much?

Lack of lubrification!

I'm guessing the more you put, the thicker the oil gets.

Some oil companies use molyb some don't, but they sure ain't giving out their recipes.

It has to be super fine molyb.

A little is fine but the more you put the more the oil pressure should go up.

I'm pretty sure it would be fine up to an ounce per oil change.

Unfortunately I'm not in a position to confirm this.



Last edited by CrazyHoe on Sun Jun 28, 2009 1:23 pm; edited 1 time in total

Exactly no one is giving away any formulas. I would think 1/2 ounce to 1 ounce would be a good amount in a 5 qt sump. I was looking into VOAs for some of the oils that use moly, Motul and Red line come to mind. Then base the amount on those, at least for a ball park starting point. Too much is going to probably fall out of suspension and form a paste on the bottom of the oil pan, at least that is what I think would happen. I'm not sure about if it plates the surface, or polishes itself into it. All I know is once it has been burnished into a rifle barrel it is a bear to get out of it. I wish I would have paid more attention in chemistry class.

AD

Have used both Molybdenum Disulfide and Tungsten Disulfide. Moly first and a few years
later started seeing Tungsten Disulfide being spec'd out. Mainly in Zero Gravity apps
with a supplemental Moly filled lube.

There is a difference between them. The difference in co-efficient of friction is 'not' that
much in the scheme of things for 'our usage'.

Moly naturally plates (molecular level) and Tungsten not as well. Toughness of it's
coating is not as good as moly. Tungsten scratches off easily. It has a pretty gray
blue hue to it when coated on metal. IT also coats most any material with the
below companies process.

Tungsten disulfide is the material and process that I asked Speeder to find the address
of the supplier I've used in Tulsa OK. Theirs is a cold process and is sprayed onto whatever.
There are surface condition requirements. This process is FDA certified (food grade).

Thermally there is a difference, but for the life of me, can't remember which is which.
Though do remember that both are way up there. Guessing Moly the higher rating of the
two.

Tungsten disulfide solved a problem with some equipment on the largest robot in
the world in the largest automated system in the world (circa early 1980's). First
on a line of electric brakes I designed and used it on many other products hatched from
that contract.

Tungsten Disulfide particles sprinkled in engine oil is new to me and will have to noodle
that and find more info. Please post back whatever you folks find.

Each has its area of application strengths and weaknesses. I'm not sold on Tungsten
Disulfide in engine oil at this time. Particle size, whether it 'will' plate or not (also how
well), then if does plate....what particle size & suspension/distribution/etc

I think 'they' all don't want to put too much, or enough, as 'enough' will have the parts
wear less and last longer. Plus they want/need us to be in constant need. So whatever
they say is 'enough', it is NOT enough...

How does this stuff compare to this? http://www.zmax.com/documents/testing_summary.pdf

Diversified Drilube is the company name.

http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/5456327/description.html
http://www.signallake.com/innovation/RealWorldOfEntrepreneur040593.pdf


Kinda sorta remember that tungsten disulfide needed to be 'applied' and it
would not 'stick' well unless in a very controlled environment.

Wonder how it works as particles that then float around between the two surfaces

Moly plates both surfaces after a bit.

This is all for the cumulative metal to metal touches on journal bearings, like the
crank.

OEM designed has enough margin to have a film and volume of oil to prevent
going metal to metal...but...boy racers like what James is doing will have the
oil margins consumed or at the hairy edge.

Why higher PSI/volume critical for longevity and the extra margin of a coating
like Moly for those metal to metal instances that will accumulate...

No time to look into zmax, nor really want to move away from moly...at this time.
You guys research and report back...maybe if it looks good enough...

Since things are a little slow for me today, I was chatting with a buddy of mine who is as interested in the TD vs Moly, and this thread that he made a phone call and gathered some information which I'll share. According to lowerfriction.com ( a company mentioned in this thread) TD is the superior powdered lube. However it doesn't stay in suspension as long as or as well as moly does, it does resist heat and pressure better, however it relies on the oil pump to dispense it. Once plated it is supposed to last a very long time. Please don't flame me I am repeating information.

He also asked about Boron Nitride, and was told it works well in diesel engines but seems to find a way of fouling plugs in a gas engine. They don't sell moly in small counts so they could be a little bias toward TD. My buddy said they were most helpful and informative, and suggested anyone who had any questions give them a call. I think we can get to the bottom of this, and extend engine life or dispel myths.

As mentioned once moly is in a rifle barrel getting it out is almost impossible. TD is more costly and it could be a reason why it isn't used, or the fact that oil containing would have to be shaken very well before adding, and that could be a turn off. JMO

AD

http://frictionsolutionsgroup.com/ULTRALUBE.pdf

Forgot to list the above site.

Yes, know TD is much more expensive back in the 80's when I used it.

Thought it would come down a lot, but guess not so.

The contract spec's usually spec'd out TD as the base coating and
MD as the additive in the lube.

My exposure to TD showed it to be fairly 'soft' and easily scratched
compared to MD.

There was some work with carbides that I came across long ago, but
they didn't have the stability and information, yet at that time.

Interesting. As my buddy stated the company he contacted did sell moly in large quantities, not in a 1 lb size that a car buff would be looking for to experiment with, so they could have been a little bias toward TD. I would think if the oil companies thought TD or BN was state of the art they'd be using it. But then again who knows? Maybe it is all about price/profit?


AD

The 'HERD' will buy it.....*IF*.....they get it into their minds that it will do
wonders....like the TB spacers, a tornado, magnets on the fuel line, etc.

For instance, if James becomes famous out on the drag strip and makes
a comment that he uses TD on his crank & block journals. It will make no
difference that it is the whole package, including the driver & crew that
made it happen. Whole package as in James engineering of it, handy
work by himself, contracted out, etc.

'They', the 'HERD' will buy TD in volume and the higher the price and
scarcer the availability, the more it will become legend...

Instant gratification and MD/TD/etc benefits aren't clearly evident 'NOW',
so the 'HERD' won't jump.

Bet they will if the packing (PR, sponsors, bottle, etc) is done 'right'

Since the results are not instant the oil companies won't, but do see
that there is a MD creep. Anyone remember graphite and PTFE impregnated
engine oil and/or additives ?

Me thinks a group buy might be the way to go...

How much does this stuff cost anyways?

So you're leading toward a GB of TD or Moly? My only fear of TD is the fact that it does settle out, and relies on the oil pump to get it going again. The plus is once it is in the bearing areas it will stay put. I'm trying to digest all the info I've gathered. Glad you're interested and sharing your thoughts. Nice bunch of people on this board !

AD

daddy_dandy wrote:

How does this stuff compare to this? http://www.zmax.com/documents/testing_summary.pdf

Well, let's read:


zMAX, a commercialized metal interface treatment, is a uniquely processed mineral oil ..... Because this uniquely processed mineral oil .... a new mechanism of micro-lubrication is offered for improving the overall lubrication and performance in automotive engines.


zMAX is derived from a highly refined mineral oil that undergoes a proprietary process involving specific molecular rearrangement.

It has a kinematic viscosity of 11.5 cSt @ 40 °C and 3.00 cSt @ 100 °C, a Surface Tension of 27.75 dynes/cm @ 20°C, and an API gravity of 36.6.

A comparison of the high temperature distillation results of zMAX versus the mineral oil used for its production reveal zMAX having a slightly higher boiling range than the originating mineral oil.

Chemical analyses using gas chromatography and mass spectroscopy conducted by Triton Analytics Corporation (Houston, TX) show a greater concentration of linear hydrocarbon chains in zMAX than in mineral oil.

-----------------------------------------------

All this to say it's is derived from a highly refined mineral oil that has a slightly higher boiling range than the originating mineral oil and a greater concentration of linear hydrocarbon chains in zMAX than in mineral oil.



Sounds like lots of big, clever marketing words.

-------------------------------------------------

Tungsten Disulfide (WS2) is one of the most lubricious materials known to science. With Coefficient of Friction at 0.03, it offers excellent dry lubricity unmatched to any other substance. It can also be used in high temperature and high pressure applications. It offers temperature resistance from -450º F (-270º C) to 1200º F (650º C) in normal atmosphere and from -305º F (-188º C) to 2400º F (1316º C) in Vacuum. Load bearing property of coated film is extremely high at 300,000 psi.

-------------------------------------------------

Molybdenum disulfide is often a component of blends and composites where low friction is sought. A variety of oils and greases are used, because they retain their lubricity even in cases of almost complete oil loss, thus finding a use in critical applications such as aircraft engines. When added to plastics, MoS2 forms a composite with improved strength as well as reduced friction. Polymers that have been filled with MoS2 include nylon (with the trade name Nylatron), Teflon, and Vespel. Self-lubricating composite coatings for high-temperature applications have been developed consisting of molybdenum disulfide and titanium nitride by chemical vapor deposition

MoS2 with particle sizes in the range of 1-100 µm is a common dry lubricant. Few alternatives exist that can confer the high lubricity and stability up to 350 °C in oxidizing environments. Sliding friction tests of MoS2 using a pin on disc tester at low loads (0.1-2 N) give friction coefficient values of <0.1.
-------------------------------------------------

Try this: remove all the molyb in your CV joints (if you have them, if not convince a neighbor to do it), then sprinkle some zMAX in there, put it all back together and see how long it lasts.

Bent1 wrote:

I think 'they' all don't want to put too much, or enough, as 'enough' will have the parts
wear less and last longer. Plus they want/need us to be in constant need. So whatever
they say is 'enough', it is NOT enough...

X2


In anything, if it's too good, they sell lots, then less, then... go out of busyness...



Last edited by CrazyHoe on Mon Jun 22, 2009 10:44 am; edited 1 time in total

Never found out whether TD plates, but all of the info found back then said 'coats'
Okay for some apps, but for an ICE, must 'plate' for my engines

MD's co-efficient of friction, IIRC, is 0.04 vs TD's 0.03, which for 'our' app is lost
in the noise...meaning not enough of a difference to warrant a larger cost/price

MD price, availability, particulate size, min order quantities, etc will dictate it for 'me'

daddy_dandy wrote:

How much does this stuff cost anyways?

You can buy Super fine grade (1.5um) molybdenum disulphide for about 50$/lbs

http://www.rosemill.com/product.asp?productid=258465



Tungsten Disulfide Powder (0.89-1.7um) 1/2 lb. bem-tung-1/2 $79.00


http://www.rosemill.com/product.asp?productid=258466

Been reading, good info.

The only thing that concerns me is little while back I read something (cant remember where) about lubes, greases to be exact. and it was suggested not to use moly because while suspended it actually is harder then the metals around it, causing pitting or wear. So for instances where tie rods or ball joints are used it makes better sense to use regular synthetic grease as long as you keep up with it and regularly grease them. Moly on the other hand is used when the joint goes dry to provide lubrication.

Not taking any sides and honestly dont even know enough to argue, but thought maybe you guys could explain on that.

I would just be weary about damage as above..

Ive used Zmax. imo worthless I returned it. lol. I didnt see any mileage improvements, had it in the engine as well as manual transmission - FWD 4cyl car.

is it possible the moly is really damaging the metal and creating pits that the particles reside in - thus requiring addition of further moly to fill in the already created pits once the particles "fall" out?

Got to love the www.

TD = $45/lb

MOS2= $48.50/lb

I would imagine a little shopping and the moly can be had for less.

AD

SikSilverado wrote:

Been reading, good info.

The only thing that concerns me is little while back I read something (cant remember where) about lubes, greases to be exact. and it was suggested not to use moly because while suspended it actually is harder then the metals around it, causing pitting or wear. So for instances where tie rods or ball joints are used it makes better sense to use regular synthetic grease as long as you keep up with it and regularly grease them. Moly on the other hand is used when the joint goes dry to provide lubrication.

Not taking any sides and honestly dont even know enough to argue, but thought maybe you guys could explain on that.

I would just be weary about damage as above..

Ive used Zmax. imo worthless I returned it. lol. I didnt see any mileage improvements, had it in the engine as well as manual transmission - FWD 4cyl car.

is it possible the moly is really damaging the metal and creating pits that the particles reside in - thus requiring addition of further moly to fill in the already created pits once the particles "fall" out?

I had read about moly being corrsive to yellow metals and had fired off an email to a company that sold it and was told it was harmless when added to engine oil. Here is a reply sent to me from one of the companies I had asked. I save this one, deleted another.

MoS2 will not corrode soft metals. Some of the particles will fall out of suspension, but quickly resuspend upon agitation.

AD

SikSilverado wrote:

Been reading, good info.

The only thing that concerns me is little while back I read something (cant remember where) about lubes, greases to be exact. and it was suggested not to use moly because while suspended it actually is harder then the metals around it, causing pitting or wear. So for instances where tie rods or ball joints are used it makes better sense to use regular synthetic grease as long as you keep up with it and regularly grease them. Moly on the other hand is used when the joint goes dry to provide lubrication.

......

is it possible the moly is really damaging the metal and creating pits that the particles reside in - thus requiring addition of further moly to fill in the already created pits once the particles "fall" out?

Interesting. But not all molyb are the same.

What we are talking about here is superfine molyb (1-1.5 micron) not your CV joint flavor... Yet I can't say what they use.


1 micron = 0.00003937 in




Infrared radiation spans roughly three orders of magnitude between 0.750 micron and 100 micron...

I've have a www buddy in NY who is helping me behind the scenes and asked if MOS2 was corrosive, and asked the same about WS2 which is tungsten disulfide. This came from a company that sells the products.

Here is the reply:

WS2 is inert so it will not corrode. MoS2 does corrode.

WS2 particles are Hexagonal lamellar so they are not abrasive (but are lubricious)


Now in a phone conversation with another company he was told MOS2 doesn't corrode and is prefectly safe. Confused? I am.............. Should have paid more attention in school............

AD